I love “radical unschooling”. I am not attached to who
started the term or to other people’s definition of it. It is simply two words
from our English language that quickly sum up how I live my extremely
complicated life. Because I love radical unschooling so much, I longed to be
better at it, to skip all the seemingly difficult times a family will go
through in their attempt to deschool everything they have been taught and led
to believe about the human condition. In my quest to be a better unschooling
mother, I admit that I have followed what some people refer to as a “guru” and,
at times, I have even put aside my own intuition, in order to follow those who
could lead me to develop some form of “awesome mom” status. We all get caught
up in our own process of becoming something or someone and this is a small
piece of my story.
We all see the world through our own filter. This means that
ten people can watch the same car accident and interpret it ten different ways.
Because of this, I have decided to present my story with Dayna and only mine,
as much as possible. The events that transpired in Texas, at the end of May,
involved multiple families. Most of those affected and their family members are
completely open regarding the parts they played and the sharing of their
stories, but it is still not my place to offer up their personal details. They
are all invited to share their chapters as they see fit and I will support any
of their wishes, whether it is to stay silent or to lay it all out on the table.
I will do my best to fill in the blanks, but if you feel holes are left, it is
only because I could not share those personal details of others. I would also
like to say that the purpose of me sharing my story is in no way a plea for you
to believe me. I have no need to convince anyone that you should feel the same
way. It is only to help shield those from the very monster they may see as
their savior. Please take what you need from my reflections and decide for
yourself what level of protection you may or may not need to defend yourself
from a sociopath.
In my research in to the sociopathic mind, I have learned
that we are surrounded by them and, man, are they good at hiding. You can
literally live with one for years and never know the person they really are
inside. You can make excuses and explain away, the pieces that do not add up.
For me, things felt very off, but I (we) was led to believe that the
strangeness I felt was due to the abused life that our sociopath was enduring.
Why would I not believe someone who claims they were and are still being raped,
beaten, verbally abused, and generally forced to live a horrific existence?
Wow, she is an even more amazing person than I realized. She can put up this
peaceful front and still have the ability to help other families, while her own
family is falling apart in the background. What an astonishing and breathtaking
person, to be able to hide her own horrors, to then turn around to offer
assistance to those families wishing to live their lives in harmony.
So, Dayna Martin, radical unschooling guru.
I first have to admit that I lied about one thing. I told
Dayna that I would not take the events from May and present them in a public
forum. I had every intention of keeping that promise at the time, but let me
add the other words that were contained in that plea to her. What I said was,
“I will not take the things that have happened this week and make them public
like other people have. I simply want you to get back home, so you can heal and
figure out how to live your life authentically. At this point, I would like to
put everything behind us and get back on track with supporting unschooling
families and forget it all happened”. I decided to let that promise go the
moment she walked away from my house and lied about me (us) before the car even
pulled away. I will start the story, not from the beginning, beginning, but
from the start of her second visit to our home in May. My husband picked Dayna
up at the airport on the evening of May 22nd. She flew in to DFW to
offer her wonderful unnanny services. For those who have not heard of the
unnanny, Dayna is the unnanny. She comes in to people’s homes and works with
their family, for a few days, to support the parents in their desire to
unschool and live peacefully with their children. I thought it was a great
service because I fully believe that unschooling will change the world.
Something you need to know about me is that, normally, I have to explain all
the intricate details of a story, to give others the chance to really
understand an event, all the way down to the emotions. I am going to do
something different here and not explain the back meaning of every sentence,
but instead simply give the cold hard facts of the downfall of the Martin and
Green friendship, again, as much as possible………..
Wednesday, May 22nd:
I am making fajitas when my hubby and Dayna arrive at home
at around 8pm. We sit around, have drinks (drinking for Dayna means shots and
shots of Vodka), and talk about plans, she says that she would like to make us
some raw food this week to show her appreciation for us letting her stay in our
RV while she is in town. We chose Monday to work on raw food stuff and decide
to go to the store the next day. Originally, Dayna was to fly in on Wednesday
and work with the unnanny family Thursday, but she explained to me that they
shorted her a day of pay, so she would spend Thursday hanging with us, as well.
She gifted me a book that night and added that I would need to hide it from Joe
because he would get very upset if he knew she gave it to me. Know that in the
past, not a day has gone by when we have not received a message or phone call (sometimes
up to 10 calls a day) that reflected the dire and abusive situation she was in
at home. She was scared for her life and didn’t know how to approach her plan
to leave her husband. None of these stories were anything new, they were each
simply another fact to add to the list of the ways that she was treated
horribly, by everyone in her life.
Thursday, May 23rd:
Thursday came and my husband was on conference calls with
work and he was having a pretty frustrating day. After hearing him talk about
work, Dayna told him to suck it up, realize that he is the breadwinner of the
family, that he has responsibilities, and that he needs to get over it. I told
her I didn’t think that was very motivating and she ignored me. Dayna and I
decided to head to the store, to purchase what she needed for her raw food
dishes that we would make on Monday. On the way to the store, she asked me how
I deal with that negative bullshit in my house everyday and suggested that we
go out and have drinks first. We did that and she continued to tell me about
her abusive home life and how she wishes she could be a part of our family. She
told us on several occasions that her main wish is to have a happy life like we
do and that she would love to be able to be authentic in her own life. We went
to the store and at checkout I paid for the $400 bill. She attempted an offer
to pay, but how would I accept that? She was very clear about the fact that Joe
controls every dime that she spends and that he would be pissed if any amount
of money came out of the account. We got home and she proceeded to take $35
worth of cashews and soak them in water. I said wait, we aren’t making this
stuff for 5 days and she said it was ok, she would keep them in the fridge. I
don’t know enough about raw food, so I let it go. The Vodka was flowing, shot
after shot, we had dinner and planned to go to bed early because we had to get
up in the morning to take her to the farm for her first day with the unnanny
family. When we attempted to go to bed, Dayna got upset and said she didn’t
want to sleep alone because she was scared and that we were mean for making her.
She claimed that she has never slept alone and she begged one of us to stay
with her. We said no and she began crying hysterically, claimed that we hate
her, and she headed to the RV. We went to bed.
Friday, May 24th:
Dayna came in to our bedroom at 6am and apologized for
getting upset and she said that she was glad we made her sleep alone and that
it was really good for her. She listed off all of the people she contacted
throughout the night. She even showed us pictures of all the people so we could
see how good looking they were. Anyway, she contacted these people to come save
her, but in the end, she decided to just stay put. She will not pack her stuff
without assistance, so we helped her pack up for the RV trip. Meanwhile, as
with any other day, she visits the bathroom every little bit (every 15-30
minutes) to touch up her face and hair. My husband began to wonder if she was
going in to do drugs, due to her continued manic behavior. We packed up the RV
and headed to the farm to meet the unnanny family. We arrived before noon, said
our hellos, and went forward with our day. I would be staying in the RV to work
on school stuff and she would work her magic with kids. Dayna came back to the
RV every 15-30 minutes, would do a shot of vodka and then drink some OJ. She
blamed the kids for pushing her over the edge and she said she had to kill her
hangover, so this continued all day long. She consumed at least a fifth of vodka
that day and kept escaping to the RV to get away from the needy children. She
went for a walk with 2 of the kids in the evening and proceeded to get lost for
over two hours. When she made it back she was very shaken, drank some more, and
got upset that I was not worried about her. When it was time to go to bed, she
began complaining, yelling, and crying heavily, saying that she was being
forced to sleep alone again and that she is only here for 8 days, so we need to
give her whatever she wants. She claimed we were treating her unfairly. This
was the night where everything changed. I went from feeling sorry for her to
watching her morph in to a sociopath in front of my eyes. I was awake all
night, fearing the person that was laying down just twenty feet from me. I have
seen psycho in my nursing career and she was it.
Saturday, May 25th:
Saturday was a new day because we would be detaching from
Dayna for a few hours. To work with the family, she would be staying at the
farm with them for the day and then driving back home to work on transitioning between
homes and the long car rides, with the kids. We all sat and had breakfast around
11am. Dayna sat there starring in to space while the unnanny parents were
trying to ask questions about unschooling. Dayna would not really answer any
questions. Kevin and I tried to help them the best we could, but later she told
unnanny mom that the kids would not stop crawling all over her and that we just
took over and did her job, so of course, we were just trying to be her. We got
the RV packed up, went to say goodbye to the family, and Dayna comes in to the
house to say she is too sick to stay with the family, so she will be leaving
with us. Um, ok. At this point, Dayna has been suction cupped to my family for
days and I was hoping for a few hours. She makes arrangements with the unnanny
family and tells them she will make up for it by coming and staying with them
Monday night. This way she can work with the kids regarding bedtimes and allow
mom to get some rest. This means she will no longer be making the raw food on
Monday that we just bought all the stuff for. I remind her of that and she says
she can totally make it all tonight. Wait! How is she going to make raw food
tonight when she is too sick to do her job with the unnanny family? On the way
home, Dayna begins to talk about leaving her husband and his abusive ways and
wanting to come live with us. We really want to help, but then she tells me
something that doesn’t make sense. At least it doesn’t make sense coming from
an unschooling mother. She says that she is going to fly home, pack up the
kids, tell them they are going on vacation, and then they can all move here.
What? I told her that she can’t just pack up her kids and lie to them about
what is happening. She says that she has no choice because if she tells them
what is happening, they may decide to stay at home. So, we get home, I go to
work on school stuff and come out a few hours later to find her pouring all the
cashews in to my new vitamix, slamming the tamper in, spewing wet cashews all
over the kitchen, and telling me that she is almost done and we can go to the
movies. Wait! I thought she was sick? She leaves the vitamix full of cashews
(for days) and talks hubby and I in to going to the movies. We felt REALLY
weird and tried to stay home to rest, but finally decided to go since she was
felling better. We are in the car and Dayna begins to cry about how we are
supposed to go to a renaissance faire the next day and she was afraid that
people would see us and think that something was going on between us. What? She
started to get really psycho about how she would want to give us a hug and she
would have to hold back. I only mention this because it is important later. We
calm her down by saying we all hug and hold hands and we promise we won’t take
pictures so Joe doesn’t get the wrong idea. Several times during her few days
with us, Joe has called and when she got off the phone she would cry about how
mean he is and how he is pissed that he knows something is going on here. What?
So, we go to the movies and things go ok. She seems to have calmed down and
after a bit of complaining that she has to sleep alone, she asks my youngest if
she wants to go swimming at midnight. She then disappears to the RV and ignores
her promise to my daughter. I need to make reference to the fact that several
times, during her stay, she brought up the idea to us that when Joe is on the
sailboat trip with my husband in a few weeks, that maybe he could find a way to
knock Joe off the boat or hit him over the head. We took these as another way
for her to work out her feelings for her abusive life. We now know that she
references getting rid of people on a regular basis. Actually, she ended up
telling Joe that he could not go on the trip with my husband because we “fucked
her over” and she didn’t feel he would be safe.
Sunday, May 26th:
Today is her scheduled day off. We had planned to go to the
renaissance faire with the other unschooling friends in the area and began
getting ready for the day. There was a video chat session that happened with
Joe before we left. Joe told her to not wear the slutty clothes she had on and
that she needed to change. This solidified our belief that Joe is abusive and
she has a pretty tough life that we need to help her get away from. We go to
the ren faire and meet up with 12 other friends that were all there to witness
the day’s events. Things were good for a few hours as we were shopping,
drinking, and eating. Sitting at the bar, Dayna waves around a credit card that
she claims has a 15K credit limit, so she is going to get that round of drinks.
She then says that we could all just disappear and buy some land with the
credit card and live the good life. We walk around some more when my oldest
daughter asked me if she could buy a dress and she showed me the one she
wanted, which was $260. I said there is no way that I can spend that much on a
dress right now. She understands, but shows Dayna the dress. Before I know it,
Dayna is telling my daughter that she will buy the dress for her as a gift. I
said there is no way that I can let her do that since she can’t spend any money
without Joe getting upset with her. She insisted, my daughter was happy, and I
let it go. The only thing is that she attempted to use the 15K credit card and
it was declined, so she used her bank card. I later found out that when she
used her bank card, she caused an overdraft in her account at home. Joe asked
her about the purchase and Dayna told him that we refused to buy the dress, so
she felt obligated to let my daughter borrow the money for it so that my
daughter would feel pretty and like someone actually cared about her. What?
Back at the bar, a friend is standing next to Dayna and Dayna starts kissing
her. Well, this is new. We walk a little further and Dayna goes up to a
stranger, starts talking to him, and then starts making out with him, in front
of all 15 of us. This is where the breakdown from Saturday evening comes in to
play. Why would she make such a big deal out of something as silly as holding
hands or hugging anyone from our unschooling community if she is just fine with
now making out with 2 different people in an hour? She was confronted and she
says that she was feeling lonely and needed the attention and then says she
actually did it because she could see the pain in his eyes and she wanted to
offer some love. What? Within the hour, Dayna comes back to me to explain that
she just went to the bathroom and made out with my friend, but she did it
because she was really thinking about me. She then goes to tell
my husband that she was asked to “be” with them and that she is ok with doing a
threesome with the couple because they are our friends and she knows it would
make us happy. Wow! When my husband inquired about the guy she made out with,
Dayna said that if we really cared about her then we would tell her not to
flirt with other people. So, this is starting to make sense. At this time, she magically
decided she was sick and needed to go to first aid. She was taken and then
seemed fine after some attention. We now know that when her husband seems
abusive, it is because she has led him to believe this is what she wants him to
do to prove his love. She tells him to let her have it if she is drinking,
wearing something slutty, or if she is flirting. We end the day with our
friends by going out to eat. Dayna is sitting between my husband and my friend’s
husband, at the end of the table. She is taking her knife and stabbing it in to
the table, manages to order and down 3 double vodka drinks, and is trying to
get each of the guys to hold her hand and continues to grope them when they
refuse to touch her. On the way home she is in the backseat with my youngest
and her friend. Dayna begins pulling up pictures of penises on the ipad and
they all giggle the entire way. We get home, Dayna comes in to my bedroom,
grabs my ipad, rips the cover off of it and starts slamming and poking it. I
told her to stop treating my ipad like that. She said she will do whatever she
wants because she doesn’t like ipad covers. I take it from her and lay it on my
bed. I turn around and she has left the room with my ipad. I find her in my
backyard, with the cover ripped off again and she has thrown my ipad in to our
firepit. I tell her that it is ridiculous that I even have to say it, but she
is no longer allowed to touch my electronics. I tell my husband and he goes to
the RV to see what is going on. I was not in the RV, so I cannot repeat what
came out of her mouth, but we both felt that we were all in danger at that
point, because of what she was saying to my husband. To make sure we were all
safe, my husband had to stay in the RV with her to ensure she would not try to
enter the house. I still sleep with a knife next to my bed 6 weeks later.
Monday, May 27th:
My husband came in to the house early and told me about the
psychotic things she had done and said. We both knew that we wanted her as far
away from us as possible, but we would attempt to keep the peace until she was
to fly home on Thursday. She was to be spending the night with the unnanny
family anyway, so we would not have to worry about her for the evening. My
husband went to check on her at 10am to see if she was ready. She told him the
she is tired and isn’t feeling good enough to go do the unnanny stuff. He said,
hell no, you will not be doing this to that family again and that she needed to
get ready so he could take her over there. We find out later that she has called
Joe to tell him that she has a urinary tract infection and that we are refusing
to take her to the doctor. What? I then go in to the RV to check for myself,
what is going on. Dayna tells me she is too sad to leave and that she will go
do her job tomorrow. I said no, I will not tolerate her pulling this on that
family again. I came in and sent a text to the unnanny mom that was expecting
Dayna this morning. I said I was on my way over to talk to her and it was not
good news. I told the unnanny family everything that had happened that week. Of
course, at this point, we were all hoping this was a onetime deal, where Dayna
was having a breakdown due to her abusive life and she had drank so much that
all of this was simply the alcohol talking. We discuss the possibility of Dayna
staying with the unnanny family, in hopes that she would sober up and snap out
of whatever this was that was happening. I presented the idea to Dayna, she
said no, and I said she did not have a choice, that she could go to their home
and stay or she needed to find another place to go to because she was not
welcome at our home any longer. During that morning, she claimed that she had
also called other people in the area to see if they could come pick her up. We
found out later that she said none of what she claimed and she was calling
people to tell them that she was sick and we would not help her. I got her to
finally agree to the idea of staying with the other family. This is when I told
her that I would not be telling anyone about this and that I just wanted her to
go home and get help. She would not pack her stuff, so we did it for her and
walked her out to the car where the unnanny mom was waiting. Once in the car,
the lies began flying. I do know that she said she was sick and we would not
take care of her and that she repeated many times that she just doesn’t
understand why we are mad at her. I have been told the story of what occurred
once she was at the unnanny house, but I will allow them to tell their story
when they are ready to put it on paper. I can tell you that Dayna never got
sober, she treated the family like they were her personal advice counselors,
and she continued to promise the kids things that she never intended on
following through with. It was not until she was gone that we went and looked
in to exactly how much vodka was gone. She had been with us for 4 full days, at
this point, much of which was spent away from out home, but she managed to
empty 3 large bottles of vodka, she left unidentified pills laying all over the
RV, and we learned that she took even more vodka with her to the unnanny home.
The madness did not end there. For the rest of the evening, Dayna kept begging
to call us or to talk to us or to come back to our home. We said no, period.
Tuesday, May 28th:
We had an unschooler pool day scheduled at my house that
day. The plan was to allow Dayna to get some rest and sober up and hopefully
she would come over with the unnanny family to just hang out and get back to
normal. Dayna refused to come, so the unnanny family came without her. I made
my way through the day and received a call from someone asking me what is going
on because she is claiming she is sick and she is mentioning suicide. I told
this person the entire chain of events and she offered to take Dayna in if she
needed someplace to go. Upon the unnanny family returning to their home, Dayna
was still in bed and refusing to get up to attend a barrel race she had
promised to attend. At this point, Dayna was told to pack her things and that
she would be going to some else’s home for the rest of her stay. She was then
driven by a friend to the place she would be staying. On the way there, Dayna
made references to still not understanding why we were mad at her and then
telling my friend that she is in love with me and she guessed that my husband
just came along with the package. Going along with this, she apparently also
told the unnanny mom that she was afraid she was gay because she loved me so
much. News to me.
During the following days, while still in town, she called
my husband to let him know that she was feeling better, that she didn’t know
what she was thinking by trying to help a family with crazy children and who
need a trauma counselor, and that she was really just so sick while here that
she was not in her right mind. While Dayna was here, she clearly told me to
take care of the Whole Life Unschooling group. She said she never wanted to
have the group and that her husband only started it so he could be a guru like
her. I was told to delete things that were non RU related and to demand that
members understand that conversations remain RU. This is what I did. I thought
I was helping her. She then told her husband that I am the cause of all of the
issues in the group and that I needed to be stopped. She then went in to the
group and told everyone that we were fighting too much and she just wanted
peace. I am letting any of you know this that are still wondering what happened
in WLU the first week of June. She had us do her dirty work, so she could look
like the pretty princess that fights for peace. This is her mo. We are all
employees in the Dayna show and she will use you and climb over you to look
like the hero. The most disturbing part is what she does to the kids. She leads
children to believe that she is the only one on this earth that really understands
them and she will do anything to save them from their terrible lives with their
families. I have experienced this very thing on several occasions, but the most
telling sign was her messages to the oldest in the unnanny family, after she
was back at home. Dayna continued to lead her to believe that she was the only
person who could possibly understand her position. From what I have gathered,
this is not a onetime occurrence. Dayna befriends children, turns them away
from their family, and breeds them to see her as a god. During these
conversations, she also makes sure that they know Joe is very abusive and that
if they ever send her a message that he might see it and beat her up.
I have numerous pages of proof to back up what I am saying
and I did not plan to share anything yet, but this feels like an important one
to share. It was a conversation between the oldest unnanny daughter (10 yo) and
Dayna. This message is in reference to the daughter asking if Dayna was going
to start being more honest now.
Dayna Martin. 5:33pm. June 1st.
“I know that everyone is feeling I am a liar and worse, but
I was *very* sick. The doctor said I was delusional when I got there from the
infection. I was not like that the first time you met me. I may have been
dishonest about some things to spare feelings or say things that were
half-truths because of my need to feel comfortable in a difficult confusing
situation. I am normally not like that. I had a complete and total breakdown. I
would like to step back for a while. This is hard for me and my family needs my
total focus. Please do not talk about this on here again. Joe reads my stuff.”
My husband and I both received apology letters from Dayna
during the first week of June. Mine said blah blah blah, don’t tell anyone or write
back and my husband’s said blah blah blah, don’t let your wife tell anyone
anything and don’t write back.
Conclusion for now…………..
From what I understand, every word that came out of Dayna’s
mouth was a lie, including everything she said to me. I have no idea what is
real in her world and what is not. I can tell you that I have learned that
Dayna went to the hospital before flying home, so she would have the paperwork
to back up the excuse that she was sick the entire time she was here. At the
hospital, she received IV antibiotics because of the story SHE gave them and
they gave her IV Advil for the pain she claimed to have. In her weakened state,
she flew home, let everyone know how deathly sick she was, and then went to get
a tattoo just a few days later. You don’t go get a tattoo when you are sick.
You just don’t. It seems that any time Dayna gets in to a sticky situation, she
becomes sick and needs to be cared for. I have also become very knowledgeable
about how she keeps all of her friends separated or at least busy when they are
in the same room with each other. Looking back, there isn’t one person that she
has said anything nice about. There is always an issue with every single
person. The complaints come in the form of they just want to be me, they are
jealous of me, or they are just a hater. She will tell people to their face
that they are her best friend and then send a note to someone else complaining
about how she can’t stand that person. She lies about everyone to everyone
else. All of the things she writes have been copied from other people. She
claims to be a raw foodie, but will not eat raw food in the presence of people.
She pretends to love raw food to sell books and to promote her blog. Her
favorite food is ribs, ribs, crackers, vodka, and ribs. The way she portrays
treating her family is a lie. She is an unparent if I have ever met one. She
uses people as puppets in her pretend world. Dayna is a sociopathic,
narcissistic, manipulative, sick excuse for a human and she sure doesn’t know
what love means.
The above paragraph is clearly my opinion. I do not ask for
anyone to believe me. I am not here to convince anyone of anything. I will not
hold it against anyone that needs to find out for themselves. I only ask that
you watch your back. If you are that person that is told by Dayna that you are
the only real friend or that she can only be honest with you or this other
person is lying, I would step back right then and there and realize you are
probably the 20th person she has said that to in the last few days.
My writing is not going to be perfect. Some things will probably not make sense
and there will be lots and lots of holes in my story or a possible feeling of bias. If I had to assign a
percentage to the content in this one explanation, it may cover about 5% of
what actually happened during her visit to Texas in May. As I stated above,
there are multiple people and multiple family members that witnessed much of
what happened and it is absolutely not my place to tell their story. It is up
to them to add their experiences. I can answer any further questions that
involve me and I can give you my opinion, as well. I will not entertain
arguments because I know what happened and it is not my job to fight with
anyone and their own views on Dayna. I will not delete any comments unless they
are completely ridiculous. This is what Dayna does. She deletes anything and
everything that she wants to hide. Every message she has ever sent you has been
deleted on her end to cover the possibility of a paper trail. We were aware of
her deletion of posts from the beginning. She always asked for us to delete
anything we had ever discussed because Joe always goes in to read her messages
and he would get angry if he knew she was talking to other people. What I do
not want is for you to go from one guru to another, searching for that voice
that fits. Listen to yourself. You are strong. You can do it. Be a great
unschooling family and just love your kids. Trust yourself.
Jen
Wow! That's bizarre. Just -- wow!
ReplyDeleteThe more we look the more bizarre it becomes. This has been going on a LONG time.
DeleteThank you for taking the time to share this!
ReplyDeleteWhen I first found unscholling (through wlu) I felt at home. Eventually I learned that everyone practically worshipped DM including myself at times..... More & more I had a bad feeling towards her, but I shrugged it off as jealousy.
Glad to know I'm not the only one who sees through her, and glad to trust my gut again.
Kathryn, that is really is what it is all about. Learning to trust ourselves is the key. Thank you!
DeleteJen
Yes may we ALL be more clear because of this.
DeleteThis is a blessing and an opportunity to be more alive than ever.
I Am, it seems like I went through a very negative process until I accepted it, now I have officially realized that it really was a blessing. I have SO MUCH more confidence in myself & my ~path~.
Deletewow, just wow. but unfortunately not completely out of line with other things i have heard.
ReplyDeleteglad you are able to move forward from this and that you have not been dissuaded from the 'unschooling' life style because of it. like anything claiming to be the know all, see all, we need to question their true motives.
{{hugs}}
Leslie, I am very comforted by those who have come forward with their own stories. I am talking about it for a few reasons. I did not find it possible to heal, while watching Dayna continue to use people. I also do not believe anything is accomplished by staying silent. It only gives her more of an ability to remain sick. Like I stated in the post, if she would have gone home to at least attempt to heal, I would not be here right now.
DeleteMy friend Sally posted this today as her status update after reading the above blog post:
ReplyDelete"Guru's are not necessarily guru's because they claim to be; because they ever claimed to be perfect and have all the answers.
Guru's are given their status by their followers.
If you have been disappointed by a "Guru" I think you need to ask yourself what was it in you that needed to seek all of the answers outside of yourself.
What part of you needed to see this person (or any person) as perfect and supplying everything you needed?
And why are you so disappointed that this person is not perfect? Are you perfect?
Can you still not see the good this person is speaking even though the veil has been lifted? The veil that in many cases is self-created by the viewer..."
And I replied:
"I'm on my way to a 'guru' where he is holding Satsang tonight at his Ashram. I don't hold him up as a guru and I am not a devotee... But I strongly resonate with the message that he delivers... & it greatly assists me in staying on my path of self awareness & transformation."
And I say the same about Dayna... it is the MESSAGE that Dayna delivers (& the inner work that her message has triggered) that has transformed my relationship with my son... for that I am eternally grateful. I also have met Dayna 5 times, including staying at her house with her family. I enjoyed our stay immensely but what is a true indication to me about a person is my son's reaction towards people... he can read people without them saying a word... and I have learnt to trust him with this ability (as most children have if it hasn't been suppressed in them). Satria loves Dayna & looks forward to the next time that we will see her and her family. He feels physically and emotionally safe with Dayna... and this is not the case with most people... he can smell unconsciousness a mile off!
I am concerned for the bigger picture here, and sharing someone's life (no matter who the person is) so publicly, and it lacks integrity. This saying comes to mind and appeared in Psychology Today as quoted here:
"When you point one finger, there are three fingers pointing back to you." Jesus had a version of this wisdom when he said, "Don't focus on the speck in your brother's eye while ignoring the log in your own eye." When cruel accusations fly, we all need to hear the voice of reason that says, "Look in the mirror, sister. You might just be talking about yourself."
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/headshrinkers-guide-the-galaxy/201109/three-fingers-pointing-back-you
I'm not saying Dayna is perfect... no one I know is perfect... we all have our dark side... some darker than others. But I do know that Dayna is spreading a very powerful & positive message... isn't that more important than publicly humiliating someone implying that you are 'better' than them. When we get triggered by someone, this is a reflection of the work that we actually need to do on ourselves. It is not about the other person, it is about needing to go within and shifting the energy that is being triggered. It is actually a huge opportunity for self awareness, healing, & growth... well, that's how I look at it anyway.
I would also urge those that have not spent time with Dayna in person to be careful about taking on someone else's story. The more conscious people won't buy into it at all... I know one person who is not even willing to read this post... they just don't need to. This is something that I am working towards myself on my path of self realisation.
I would be careful leaving your son with that family. You may just end up having a story like this to tell at some point and all the fingers will then be pointing back at you, with only regret and a long path of healing for you both that may or may not ever be travelled successfully.
DeleteKeep in mind, this is *ONE* person who was bold enough to come forward. I hope this "sparks" others to share their story of the lies and deceit that the "Sparkling Martins" spread. The message they try to give is wonderful, if it were told in truth and love, but much like the corrupt church leaders, once you look beyond their grandeur and prestidigitation, you see that their message is tainted by their own lies. I am a free learner with my children and I make mistakes, I also admit them and these self-titled gurus DO NOT. Beware of false prophets.
Alice, thank you for having the strength to post here and to stand up for what you believe. When I warned you about Dayna a few weeks ago, I was very clear in my agreement that you would have to find things out for yourself. I was especially concerned about you because you have business dealings with her and she will not ultimately care whether she runs all over you, leaves you homeless, or penniless. Maybe she now knows that you know my side of things and maybe this will cause her to be more accountable with you and the agreement you two have. I saw the post that Sally put on Facebook this morning and I completely agree with it. The difference here is that people are not placing expert or guru status on Dayna, she is making sure people are aware that she thinks she is. This is narcissistic behavior at its finest. Putting that aside, yes, if people are seeking a guru and get harmed in the exchange, it is the responsibility of the person. This is me being responsible, by sharing MY experience so others may trust their own intuitions better than I did. I totally screwed up. I trusted a liar. I fully admit that and am working to trust myself again. I also agree with you that Dayna has great messages that can assist families in their difficult times. Dayna does not just share a message she received from the gods. She leads everyone to believe that this is how she lives her life. That is a lie. Understand that when you are at her home, she is on. She is an actress and you are the audience, period. She cares nothing about you or your son. The one thing that I do not agree with is making your son the responsible party for whether you trust someone or not. Dayna is good and when he discovers her for who she is, how will he feel when mom has placed this on him. If you trust nothing else I say, please know that your child is in danger of being swayed by her and if it happens, she will be the light of his world and you will simply be his birth mother. She is that good at tricking children and saving them from their unfortunate lives. You speak of finger pointing. I knew when I finally began writing this blog, that I would have to stand up to the fingers pointing back at me. I am an open book and hide nothing of who I am. I make mistakes, I am not perfect, I have bad days, I yell at my kids, I have wanted to run from it all, but I do not hide any bit of me. I never expected perfect from anyone and I am not better than anyone, unless you call being honest, better. Yes, she has triggered me and apparently many other people too. I am not the only one that has experienced this with her, however, the fact that you have not experienced it, does not mean it still cannot occur. Just take care of you and your son and remain aware.
DeleteDo you think it's safe for someone guzzling vodka to be in the presence of your son and someone he should look up to and be comfortable with? Alcoholism + Children + Teaching = BAD, to simplify the issue.
DeleteIf she is humiliated it is ONLY because of her own actions. These words here are simply words of TRUTH. She has been lying like an insane woman for years and it is finally catching up with her.
DeleteHer actions are far beyond a little mistake here and there. They are WAY over the top malicious, deceitful manipulative acts to gain wealth and fame at the cost of ANY body else....The only reason she has helped people is because she has to in order to get the "status" if she treated everyone like Jen or me she would not be where she is. She has to own up to her actions and what has ACTUALLY happened. Things like this are just NOT ok in ANY circumstance. Let alone over and over again. Not only is this WAY beyond little mistakes but there is NO regret, NO remorse, NO apology or even coming clean. She just makes it WORSE and WORSE which shows who she REALLY is.
I Am - I absolutely agree. And what's with her deleting and changing her blog every 5 mins? She issued you an apology (claiming Joe was a broken man) but has since deleted it. Same with Jen's half apology (which was really saying sorry she HERSELF ever got involved there). Either she's sorry or she's not, but this constant changing of the story smacks of huge mental and emotional instability.
DeleteAlice, sadly the more conscious we are the more we can see this side of her. It's blatantly transparent. I never had a good feeling about her, shrugged it off, and then realised over time that my first instinct had been right all along.
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry, but I cannot separate the message from the person when that person is purposefully presenting her-or himself as someone who deeply understands unschooling. The Martins have gone to great lengths to be known as radical unschoolers and use their family life as an example of how to do it "right". Just as I lose all respect for a "family values" proponent who has affairs, I cannot sit back and say, "Well, at least her message is good." It smacks of fraud. People are paying money for her services and for her books. They should know the whole truth and be informed consumers of her products before they spend their money on hearing her message.
ReplyDeleteWell said, Christine.
Deleteand amen to that Christine!
DeleteIt's confirming of my intuition and skepticism to read things like what Jennifer wrote. I just recently returned to FB after a year or two hiatus and Dayna's and Joe's comments had me looking askance. They're both attention seekers, to say the least. But Dayna's comment describing herself was all I needed to read to know she was hungry for power. It was something about being a pioneer (!?!?!) in the unschooling lifestyle. Say what? She was seven years old when I started the unschooling life and I'm fairly certain there were others before me. I watched the Life Swap episode and thought she handled it well, but also figured there was some kind of exchange (no proof - just a feeling) between her and the production staff to only show the good stuff. Joe's short fuse did get shown though, and he didn't seem very intelligent to me. That's me judging from the little I saw of him and many of his posts. As she gets more and more media attention, it worries me. She's representing radical unschoolers whether we like it or not. And many of us DO NOT LIKE IT. It's why pieces like yours, Jennifer, are so important. If the public only sees the good side of Dayna, then the movement can continue growing. But when they hear the truth, it's going to make all of us look bad. So I'm more than worried; I'm angry that she's doing this to the radical unschooling movement! Every year there are more and more of us because of the positive outreach so many of us have done. What's it going to look like to the unenlightened public when she drinks her children into the foster system? All unschoolers are nuts? The number of unschoolers has grown because of us putting our truths out there, not because some actress put on a show! So we have to keep putting those truths out there about the positivity of radically unschooling in sanity. Thank you, Jennifer, for your sanity and courage to post about your experience.
ReplyDeleteValerie Fitzenreiter (copied from my post on Facebook)
Alice, if someone is promoting a raw food business, pretending to be a raw foodist themselves when they're actually not, how is this a reflection of us? I'm just curious how a fraudster can somehow get away with fraud by claiming we ourselves are the fraudsters, not them? I agree about reflection and seeing ourselves in others etc, but certain things in life are just plain wrong, and lying about the businesses you're promoting is plain wrong. You can't get away with that by trying to throw it back onto others.
ReplyDeleteSame with her claims to be this perfect Radical Unschooling mother when she quite clearly isn't walking the talk.
Her main aim in life is to be famous, and she will lie as much as she feels is necessary to try to make this happen. She is using Radical Unschooling as her ticket to fame and sadly she is giving the whole movement a really bad name.
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ReplyDeletePlease post them here. The more people that know, the faster we can out her for what she really is. <3
DeleteMagickal, thank you. Dayna and I discussed you while she was here. It is interesting that when the Laurie stuff happened, I came across your blog and got my first feelings of uneasiness. Dayna did not like that. She cried, but I did not feel it. You are crazy, btw. I love your post and look forward to the links you are going to add.
DeleteJen
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DeleteI've been skeptical of Dayna since she first burst on the unschooling scene not that many years ago. I pegged her then as evidencing Narcissistic Personality Disorder and nothing I've heard in the interim has dissuaded me from that admittedly-amateur diagnosis, especially this report. I don't think she's a sociopath. That label applies to a different set of traits, which she does not demonstrate, IMO.
ReplyDeleteSociopath Definition - A sociopath is often well liked because of their charm and high charisma, but they do not usually care about other people. They think mainly of themselves and often blame others for the things that they do. They have a complete disregard for rules and lie constantly. They seldom feel guilt or learn from punishments. Though some sociopaths have become murders, most reveal their sociopathy through less deadly and sensational means.
DeleteYes, she absolutely IS a sociopath! No question there IMHO!
Frank, thank you for posting. I totally agree that she has NPD, for sure. I also know that she is a sociopath. These details may become more clear in later posts from the others that were involved.
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DeleteI try to avoid her in general so my experience and interaction is limited, especially in the last several years. I'm certainly willing to be convinced that she's beyond NPD and all the way to full-blown sociopath. I just haven't come to that opinion myself. Yet. My opinion of Joe is that he's a bully; but my knowledge of, and interaction with, him is very limited, so that's all I'm willing to say.
DeleteOh thank you thank you Magickal Housewife for coming here and posting. I read a comment somewhere else from someone who said they used to work for Dayna and behind closed doors it was a different story. I somehow KNEW that person was telling the truth and that was a major lightbulb for me. Was that you who wrote that? And if so thank you. It's those "in the know" who can enlighten the rest of us. I personally would love to read some posts that you've written.
ReplyDeleteThank You Jennifer for sharing this.
ReplyDeleteMy heart hurts for those involved.
Gurus, Teachers, Mentors, Coaches...etc...are meant to help guide us to your own truth when/if we desire support. There is a place for this as we do not have to do anything "alone". Yet over the years I have seen this happen over and over in all the different communities I am a part of. It is so important to trust your gut/intuition, research and ask for referrals.
So very sad for all involved and actually for our unschooling community as a whole.
I hope Dayna can get help for her addiction, without sobriety nothing will be able to change.
I don't want to be anonymous - but cant seem to log in...lol
~Tracy Liebmann
Tracy, thank you for your support. If a guru is to help guide us to our own truth, maybe Dayna qualifies? I know that she drank a ton while here and like I had said, I wish that was the problem, but it is apparent to us now that alcohol is not the problem. It just helped the crazy come out louder. She actually claimed to me and many others that she doesn't really drink, but you can not go from not drinking for 4 months to downing a fifth of vodka everyday without ending up in the hospital from alcohol poisoning. She was obviously used to it since she made the proper enzymes to break it down.
DeleteJen
Jen, I would agree alcohol made the crazy come out louder...it always does ;-) But I stand by my statement that a person with any kind of addiction can not get their mental health issues figured out without getting clean and sober.
DeleteYes, I think I see where you are coming from in regards to the "guides us to our own truth" statement, she sure did that...you/we sure have been guided to the truth! Again I am sorry you, your family and friends had to go through this! Take care and again I commend you for your bravery to tell the story. I really don't understand the idea of keeping quiet when something is so obviously hurtful. ~Tracy
Wow..omg..Alice...3 months ago, I was right there with you. I absolutely couldn't believe some of the stuff I was reading on the blog posts about Dayna and things she had done...I was right there defending her message..and her..and then my kids and I did spend time with her...she came to Texas to share her unnanny expertise. So my story..and my witnessing events and experiencing the aftermath of the events at the Greens with Dayna staying in my home is quite real and factual. Not my opinion of her..my experience of her. I was so very excited about the possibility of learning from her and growing as an unschooling parent. I trusted what I read on her website about her unnanny services. I will not go into my full experience here now but I will say this. What happened in my home was not a "nobody is perfect; we all have a dark side; let me point the finger at you because I don't want to look at my own issues". What happened here is so far beyond that. My children loved Dayna, adored her, trusted her and were as excited as me to work with her and learn from her. I spent weeks after she left dealing with angry kids, picking up the pieces of her visit, with my oldest especially. She continually "promised" them she would "get it together" and interact. She didn't. She would tell them what they wanted to hear so they would leave her alone...to go to the rv or to lie in bed and not have to deal with them. Had she truly been sick...had she gone home and got the help she said she needed...and not lied about what really happened here and my family being "a trauma case" and "beyond helping" perhaps we would be writing a different story. Nothing of our experience at all supports her "powerful and positive message". I am glad, Alice, that you and your son and Dayna are getting what you need from each other. I truly am. Sadly, for me and my family, we had nothing to offer but an excuse to fulfill a personal agenda. Her message has no credibility for me anymore and I hope no other "newbies" get sucked into it. This is all from me for now..
ReplyDeleteThere is truth that when someone gains skills and expertise over the years they sometimes reach an "expert" or "guru" or "leader" status by their followers. That isn't what happened with the Martins. THey labeled themselves "leaders" with nothing to back it and straight up LIES about the amount of years and experience they had. That isn't ok.
ReplyDeleteThis is a sad story, and unfortunately it jives with messages I got from friends asking what the heck was going on with the WLU page on Facebook in late May, early June. The uproar with another prominent unschooler got nasty very quickly, and my blog post promoting acceptance was promptly deleted from the page, along with all the comments. (Twice) My feeling is that there is no such thing as an unschooling guru. Those of us who write about it draw on our own experiences in the hopes that what we say might help others. However, none of us are "The Expert" and there are as many different unschooling paths as there are unschoolers. There is no one right way to unschool. Anyone who says they have the one and only correct path is wrong. I feel badly for everyone involved in this situation.
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ReplyDeleteAbove you asked me to let you know what she said about you. I don't remember exact words at all, but I mentioned reading your blog and getting my first feeling that maybe these people aren't making this stuff up. She cried and could not believe that I would say such a thing. I told her I was just being honest, but will give her the benefit of the doubt. She told me you used to work for her, but you kept trying to steal her ideas and lie about her, so she fired you. You continued to stalk her after all of that, She mentioned something in there about you being bipolar and that Joe hated you.
DeleteJen wrote "you kept trying to steal her ideas and lie about her, so she fired you. You continued to stalk her after all of that, She mentioned something in there about you being bipolar and that Joe hated you."
DeleteThis is interesting how she has basically described herself here - stealing other people's ideas, stalking, being bipolar!! Alice, this is a fine example of reflection at play. Next time Dayna tells you about her "haters" listen to the words she uses to describe these people, because underneath it all she's actually describing herself.
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DeleteMagickal - I almost cried reading your letter. I can see how you just wanted some appreciation/acknowledgment from her, but instead she treated you like dirt. I am so pleased for you that this is all finally coming out. The truth needs to be told. She's been getting away with this for too long. Did you know she put herself on the Dr Phil show all those years ago as the voice of radical unschooling when in reality she was completely new to the movement? Her lies know no end. I'm pleased you stood up to her in the end and stopped her walking all over you.
DeleteMagickal, thank you for your information. I realize that it is difficult to bring up all these feelings again, but I also know that the pain will never fully heal until something changes with Dayna. Right now she is sitting in poor me status, so everyone is left to feel sorry for her sad situation. There are certain things that people are refusing to notice. First, this has been going on for 7 years and she is just now saying she is not perfect. Secondly, there have been multiple separations that have occurred in the unschooling community and they all involve her. She is the common denominator, period. I am so grateful for the support from you. Feel free to add anything else that seems important. Thank you!
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DeleteI'm pretty sure that although she has a supposed $10,000 minimum. I doubt anyone is actually paying her that. She also solicits speaking gigs for no money and/or just travel expenses covered. So she may well be saying she makes $10,000 (the fake it until you make it way) but does not in reality.
DeleteShe had told me if someone wants her to come to a conference, her only price I would be allowed to accept was $10,000 as her assistant. But maybe she was knowing they wouldn't pay her and wanted to get out of the conference thing? Just to make it look to me as if she was a big deal?
DeleteAs one of the 2 only coordinators of the last conference in Australia, I would like to let it be known that the information written above regarding the last conference in Australia that Dayna attended (August 2012) is not true.
DeleteBrit, would you mind stating which part is not true? Are you simply speaking of the actual amount of money she was paid, because really, there is no way to know the truth here unless you are able to share. Since no one but her saw the check, it would just help to clear up which of Dayna's statements are true of false. We have all been led to believe different things.
DeleteI totally feel like I am overposting here, but I just put up a new blog: http://ramblingsofamagickalhousewife.blogspot.com/2013/07/the-truth-about-dayna-martin.html
ReplyDeleteThank you so much for all the information and links!
DeleteMagickal Housewife please keep the posts coming. This information is SO important as it's coming from people who know Dayna. She has done this same thing over and over to people and the truth needs to come out now. We would all love to know your observations of her as a mother too - after all that's what she bases her whole career on, and I somehow doubt she's Mother Theresa at home.
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ReplyDeleteMagickal, bipolar was actually my first thought when we were headed to bed on that Thursday night and she had a fit. I even said it was quick cycling bipolar, because she changes her moods so drastically. I did not know alcohol was even a problem until we went to kick her out of our home on Monday and she was plastered at 10am. She definitely has mental illnesses, although, it would take years to fully diagnose her because she is so good at acting. Sociopathy looks to be her overall problem. She does not have real feelings and seems to learn how to act from watching others and then she mirrors them.
DeleteThank you for pulling the mask off of the guru. People need to see them for who they really are. My heart breaks for those mothers and fathers who are not strong people, who lack confidence and trusting their own gut.. those are the ones they prey on.
ReplyDeleteI am pretty sure you won't post this bc it is not supporting your rants. I am 48 and I do not need any fucking body's permission or approval to follow or admire someone. I know what the Martin's have done for me and my family. Not only did I not want to waste my time reading through the fucking books about this issue, but I cannot fathom why someone would even waste their time relating it all. I do not base my friendships on the experiences of others with my friends. We all have our skeletons, imperfections, and struggles. This does not sway me one bit. I don't know what the truth is about all that shit, nor do I care. I care that the Martins have helped me and my family immensely. I don't care what they did or did not do with or to you. I am sure if someone wanted to trash me, they could dig something up. I think this entire post and all the soap opera that follows is a shame. Disgusting.
ReplyDeleteMaggie, why would I not post this. It is your opinion and that is fine. I am not asking for you to change it. I am really happy to hear that the Martin's have done so much good for you and your family. You sound stronger than most of us who allowed her to use us. It may look like wasting time to you, but I am doing it to protect others and to heal and that is not wasting time to me. I am also sorry that you do not care about the truth. Maybe that is where we differ. I care about the truth. If you do not care what they did to me, then why are you reading this and posting on it? Why waste your time? Thank you for sharing your views. I am well aware that Dayna has people that love and follow her.
DeleteMaggie it's interesting you've come here to attack Jen for writing something negative about Dayna (using angry expletives, calling her disgusting), and yet what you're complaining about you're actually doing TO Jen with your own negative comment - can you not see that? If you don't believe in free speech then don't comment anywhere, it's that simple. Fair enough you can be angry with what Jen has written, but you have no right to challenge her right to free speech, and she most certainly is not "disgusting" for sharing her truth. Quite frankly, she can write what she wants.
DeleteAnd it's interesting Maggie that you assumed Jen wouldn't publish your comment because we all know Dayna never publishes negative comments on her blogs. Incidentally I posted something negative there the other night and of course it never appeared. That right there is the difference between Jennifer Green and Dayna Martin. One is honest, straight forward, says it how it is, doesn't hide the truth or delete negative comments - the other is none of this!
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DeleteEven if all of this is true. This bashing says more about you then her.
ReplyDeleteSusanne, what does it say?
DeleteSusanne, I find it interesting how someone like Dayna can lie, steal and manipulate, but because she wraps it up in a fancy bow that somehow makes it ok. Yet when someone exposes their truth about her, somehow it's seen as "bashing". I see it as exposing, nothing more. Wouldn't you wish to be informed if someone was conning you in your life? I would, and I thank Jen for her courage.
Deleteits a different thing to expose your truth to friends or to the public in this way. this is bullying and many ppl read it. there are other ppl and children involved who don´t feel safe now anymore. this fust feels off. way too much. but who knows, what good will come out of it for both sides..
DeleteYou know, my oldest are in their twenties now, and I've been online and part of the unschooling community since my eldest was a newborn (usenet baby!) and I've seen this story a half dozen times now! Different alternative parenting guru, same fall from grace when too many real life people see them instead of hiding behind a computer screen. Scratch the surface and the dysfunction shows really quickly. No one wants to be a guru unless they're mentally ill to start with I've decided...and the more publicity they get the worse it gets. I'll be honest, the entire "branding" of radical unschooling by DM rubbed me the wrong way and got my spider senses tingling from the moment I heard about her. I really hope for her and her family's sake that the spotlight gets turned off very quickly.
ReplyDeleteI want to say that radical unschooling is a very valid and wonderful life choice for families that are willing to do the work necessary to create a peaceful and rich learning environment. There are a lot of people who like the idea, but don't do the work. It's not an easy option for homeschooling, but when done well, it is truly beautiful both for parents and children, in my opinion.
ReplyDeleteI have never followed or have been interested in following Dayna Martin and her family. I feel there are much better unschooling resources. For those who feel disillusioned, I offer these as valid places to rekindle interest:
Pam Laricchia is wonderful, clear and knowledgable. Her books are short, accessible and full of great information on unschooling and deschooling. Her website is: http://livingjoyfully.ca/blog/.
Sandra Dodd is an invaluable resource. Her unschooling website is a rabbit hole of valuable information. It can be found here: http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
Joyce Fetteroll is probably one of the clearest thinkers I have read on learning and unschooling. She has a collection of writings at her website: http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/
Pam Sorooshian is also clear. She has a blog: http://learninghappens.wordpress.com/
The two greatest resources for me personally have been the Always Learning Yahoo List, on which I have read for years and on which I occasionally write. You can subscribe here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/ There is also a Facebook version here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/303347574750/
I would humbly suggest not following gurus. Follow ideas that make sense and look to those who have shown evidence of unschooling working successfully. All of the people I have listed above have grown unschoolers who now live full lives in the real world. They have experience to share because they have witnessed it work successfully. Most importantly, look closely at your own families to find what works best. Without a doubt, they are your best resource.
yes to all of this - and another great resources - wendy presnitz is editor of life learning magazine - a great rrsource - find it here - http://lifelearningmagazine.com/blog/ - and as far as communicating with others and your children - nonviolent communication - nvc works with toddlers as well as it does adults.
Deleteand to add to that list there is awesome stuff from
DeletePam Laricchia:
http://livingjoyfully.ca/index.htm
She has an emails series that is free and fabulous plus her books are great and she has great blog posts.
Karen, love this! Thank you so much for the links!
DeleteCan't forget http://www.homefires.com/
Deletehttp://marygriffith.net/
http://www.parentatthehelm.com/tag/unschooling/
http://www.johnholtgws.com/
http://www.holtgws.com/gwsarchives.html (they have every issue of GWS for free online)
And frankly I'm suspicious of any so-called "expert" or "guru" who never mentions John Holt. I'm just so surprised how many don't even know who he is.
The ones who do know about him seem to be trying to remove him from the movement. http://www.takingchildrenseriously.com/the_dark_side_of_john_holt Thankfully most didn't take the bait and called the author out. And a big thanks that Pat Farenga is back on the scene.
I am another who never put Dayna Martin on a pedestal so it's not overly shocking to find out these details. She and her family never resonated with me from the get go. I always did get a feeling of suspicion that what you saw on the outside was not all there was. Now I know why! If I am to follow a guru, I would like them to be a honest person who is a "what you see is what you get" type of person. I really value those.
ReplyDeleteSorry to those who have had to endure all this drama.
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DeleteI happily RU and have been fortunate to be connected to the best examples around. I did hear, offhand, about the scandal last year but felt no need to read up since I have no connection to DM. I now am taking the time to read and realize how important it is to know about these kind of occurrences - just so that I can be aware that there really are people who exist like this in the world. So a year later - thank you. Also the links, above, to DM's blogs show she has deleted the posts referencing the scandal. I suppose it would not be a good marketing strategy to talk about it.
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ReplyDeleteMagickal, thank you for your powerful message! This is definitely new information and I am grateful that you shared it. Dayna has this view of LOA that leads her to think she is the only one with a connection. The higher consciousness has deemed her worthy of energy control above all others. She actually believes this, so it does not surprise me that she claims psychic abilities as well. I look forward to learning more from others when they feel safe enough to post. Thank you!
DeleteHello. Want to start out to Maggie: "Wow, your hostility makes it impossible to take you seriously." On the other hand, the author of this piece, Mrs. Green, has written a calm, believable accounting of what she experienced. I do not believe it was written for any other reason than for helping others not to be "taken in" by Mrs. Martin. (If I was going to hire a plumber, and there was info to be shared by someone that 'said' plumber had ripped them off, I would want to know.) Same thing here. So, thank you to the author for taking the time to share the details. I do believe they are important. While yes, it is possible to separate the message from the messenger in some cases, if what was described here was true,I'm sad to say my respect for Mrs. Martin has taken a severe plummet. I do appreciate that she has put forth the message of unschooling for the masses, in past years, but my fear is that that will come back to hurt the unschooling movement, because she is not truly what she appears to be. And truth is always found out. A long time ago I bought the Radical Unschooling book. Wow, it was so badly written, I could barely get through a page without a heavy heart knowing this could hurt unschoolers in general. I then looked up the ratings on Amazon and discovered more bad news: Someone had posted a bad review about the book already and apparently Mr.(Joe) Martin started some sort of retaliatory attack with the reviewer. Wow. Really? That he could start a fight with someone because she posted a bad review about his wife's book? (And, really the book was so, so poorly written.) I understand that people who like the message of Dayna's book, found it to be ok---that's fine. But my concern was that someone who was looking to discredit unschooling would read the book (say Dr. Phil, or some journalist, or even just someone's grandparents who don't approve of unschooling), and the book would stand out as an example that perhaps all unschoolers might in fact be crazy and fooling themselves? Hopefully I was taking that too far?! But I love the unschooling path/lifestyle and accordingly, I want positive examples out there! I have no judgment about people who are alcoholics, or in abusive relationships, or any number of challenging life struggles. I wish people well. In this case, I still wish Mrs. Martin well, but I strongly recommend that those of us that put ourselves out there as examples and models of this growing movement---please do so carefully. Please care more about setting a positive example of unschooling than at making money or being on TV of having a long list of "followers." Don't get me wrong-- I hope people DO make money on talk shows, and by selling books, and making appearances. Let's have more of those---more positive inspirations out there, with a positive message! But if you're, in fact, hiding a dysfunctional lifestyle which could backfire on the rest of us, then do us all a favor, and please stay home. (Btw, staying home is not a bad thing, it's generally where our kids are....). Thanks again to the author, for taking the time to rationally relate the details of your experience.
ReplyDeleteWren, thank you so much for your post and sharing your personal experience. Putting the pieces of the puzzle together has not been easy, but it helps when others share their own personal stories. What I am seeing is, like Maggie, about 75% of the comments on Dayna's blog are fully admitting to the fact that they have not even read my blog posts. They claim that they know her and the person she really is. I hate to say this, but that is the problem here. Dayna leads people to believe they are her best friend, that she has never had such a great connection, and that she can finally be herself with them. They are buying the product and ignoring the alarms going off around them. There is a reason for tornado sirens. You may want to pay attention and get in the closet before she wrecks your world too.
DeleteWhat a wonderful post, Wren! I liked it so much that I quoted it as a reply to one of Dayna's post on Facebook. About two minutes later the post was deleted and my Facebook account blocked from Dayna's. Keep in mind that I have never had any dealings with Dayna before this. It was simply this one opposition that could cause a complete elimination of me from her. It's actually kind of scary. Only the supportive posts are shown to give an illusion that she only has supporters and followers..people on her side.
DeleteI understand that it is her Facebook page, but it doesn't seem very authentic (something she claims to support so heavily in her life) to give this false illusion that you only have supporters and to delete and block any person who offers a post more on the objective side. It makes you wonder how many others are out there who have had negative dealings with Dayna Martin that she has deleted all traces of.
In addition I noticed on Dayna's page how heavily she is playing the victim and convincing her fans that you are the perpetrator bullying her. It's amazing how quickly the fans lap it up and forget that you and others in this situation are the victims.
ReplyDeleteThis seems to happen a lot where the victim is turned into the "bad guy."
I am glad you and others have come forward to warn others about her so they can think twice before requesting the services that she offers.
Yes, J and Magickal Housewife: I read Dayna's blog post this morning and these are my thoughts: I am still rather furious from the "a very challenging family who had expectations of me that I was not in a position with my health to meet, alcohol infused confusing time" comment. What? What? What expectations did I have of you besides the positive, powerful message of your book and your website advertising your unnanny services and your uplifting blog? Those implied expectations? The toxicity you brought on yourself for your own personal gain knowing full well you had a professional commitment. And you also knew full well the "difficult" family dynamics you requested to come back and help! It sucks to get caught in your own web of lies, doesn't it? This is unschooling 101...natural consequences. Yes....I am really really mad!!!! Finally!!!!!
ReplyDeleteI, of course, don't have a way to get that message to her other than someone taking it back...although it would not matter. She is not in denial...she knows the truth and that there are others who have not spoken. She can make me the bad guy all she wants...I do not have to answer for her actions...she does...
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ReplyDeleteThere was no reason to write a detailed account of DM's bizarre behavior and post it online. If warning others in the unschooling community of using her services was your true motive, then you could have posted a general: Buyer Beware. There are more ethical ways to relay a bad experience or cautionary tale than to include every shameful detail. Also, I find you and your husband to have enabled this sad situation. Why didn't you, upon noticing DM's unstable condition, ask her to leave or warn the family that she was going to "unnanny"? Or seek help? How could you even encourage her to visit the unsuspecting family? If what you write is even half-true, then DM must be a very sick woman in need of help. Attacking her character is not what is needed. Compassion, not slandering, is in order, I believe. Yes, we must defend the unschooling lifestyle from becoming a mockery. We should oust those "gurus" who give it a bad name or who are dishonest in a ethical and mature manner. Your post seems most unprofessional.
ReplyDeleteEvelyn, thank you for writing your thoughts. I attempted to elicit assistance from several people, her best friend included, and I was laughed at. I posted it because it would do no good to go to anyone else that surrounds her. She will lie her way out of it and fishhook people in to going along with it because she provides a "lifestyle" they are used to. A general buyer beware would have been taken like every other complaine against her. I would have been talked about, I would be a hater, her life would go on untouched while mine is certainly not. Ethics, really? She took children in to a bar and told them not to contact her or her husband would beat her, so I will leave that one alone. The shameful details have not been shared. I have plenty more that I have not put out there, so that I could still attempt to protect her as a human being. When we really knew what was happening, we did ask her to leave. She would not leave. It took us 6 hours to physically move her out of our RV, like trying to get a cat into a bath. Her claws were implanted in to our lives and she refused to care what our request was. Did you read my blog? I totally went and spoke to Patti about the situation. It was her idea to take her in and support her while she sobered up and snapped out of it.When it was obvious that she would not be getting better, she was asked to leave their home too and she was taken to a safe house with no children. She was even taken to the hospital where they found that nothing was wrong with her. So, we will pretend that what I write is half true and you will know that Dayna is very sick and needs help. Compassion is what I have, but I have none left for her and tons of it left for those she continues to manipulate. I am not a professional, so thank you for noticing. This way you do not expect any pretty pictures and fluffy words to give you that novel feel.
DeleteJennifer is not the professional here. Dayna (supposedly) is "the professional" and is the one who acted "most unprofessional."
DeleteI disagree that just posting a general "Buyer Beware" would do the job of warning people effectively because people brush off that kind of stuff, but specific examples of what happened (and then corroborating stories from others) helps people to realize that what they are saying is true and not just a baseless claim designed to hurt someone for no reason.
You obviously haven't ever been close to a Narcissistic person or you would understand that the way they operate is to make you feel sorry for them and twist things so that you don't know the whole story and then make you feel like you need to help them or terrible things will happen (suicide, spousal abuse etc.) My guess is that was why they didn't kick her out. But I'm just guessing.
And look up the definition of slander. It's not slander if it's true.
Evelyn, I would just like to add to what Jennifer said and clarify that my intent was not to take Dayna into my home, with my children, to sober her up (I honestly don't remember even knowing that she was drunk that morning..not saying I wasn't told she had been drinking...there was a lot of information coming at me at once) but definitely it was my hope to help her snap out of it by getting her away from the Greens. Doesn't make sense to me now, knowing my state of mind then and what I wanted for my family, to allow a drunk Dayna to come over. Would have defeated the purpose. I definitely knew she was an "emotional" mess but I now know my definition of that...and her reality...were two different things.
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ReplyDeleteI agree that a general warning about Dayna (or anyone)would have only elicited people saying "But you have no proof." And it makes sense to want to tell one's side of a story, so I support Jennifer's decision to publish the blog. As far as the Wife Swap episode, I believe Dayna did a good job. I was impressed. I did not see it as a disservice to the community....I recognize that unschooling IS likely going to look "wacko" (as somebody put it) to people learning about it for the first time. But the more it gets put out there, then people's shock about it can wear off... Just my opinion. Like I said before, my concern (now) is that this person's instability and behavior which is completely out-of-line with her message, may backfire on unschoolers, since she has put herself out in the spotlight. So, I wish Dayna well and hope she can pull it together. Probably the part/s that bother me most aren't even the details of this blog, but the way she and her husband don't own up to it, and try to turn it back on others... in deleting comments that disagree with them and blaming "the accuser/s." That's the most disturbing part, by far. It's one thing to be a flawed person that needs love and support; it's another to demonstrate such misguided aggression. Anyway, peace to you all. Have a good day.
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ReplyDeleteThe TRUTH to me is the utmost importance.
ReplyDeleteIn TRUTH there is much power in the public message that Dayna shares. What she preaches is indeed for the most part great. If she were able to say this is INSPIRED truth, that she is ATTEMPTING to embody and share with the world it would be one thing. However her and her life is a TOTAL sham, lie, play, act....Just pure fraud.
I have known Dayna and her family for MANY years. I have spoken at conferences with her many times and have been quite aware for a long time of the TRUTH. The truth is that her REAL life is a mess....She is not healthy, her drinking is NOT constant but she is very susceptible to bing drinking. She has told me MANY times how Joe beats her, and also prostitutes her to his friends. Her children are very needy and very bratty. This as someone else said is NOT slander if its TRUE. These are facts. I have more proof than anyone and have NOT shared it because I have been giving her time to come clean. I told her I was going to make the truth public and she could either get it together or crumble. She tried to discredit me and KEPT the lie going.She has only made it worse and worse.....I just have not felt compelled to destroy her as she is so pathetic. I can handle judgment, criticism, blame, threats, slander etc....No biggie..... One blog or video with the FACTS I have would ruin her whole career. I do not wish her any more pain that she is already in DAILY.
Now however it is different as it is OBVIOUS she is giving a bad name to something that is so great. Unschooling. She is the most famous of her niche and she is NOT a living example of the greatness that is the potential for freedom.
It is very hard to tell what is a lie what is a partial lie and what is true. Yet it is OBVIOUS that she IS a liar and a fraud. Joe either beats her and threatens her for everything or he doesn't. In truth thats not what matters. What MATTERS is that either he doesn't and she tells MANY he does to get sympathy and control or he does and she LIES about it to the public and pretends like she has a perfect family when in truth they ALL live under the anger and abuse of such violence and dysfunction. Either way its nothing to represent freedom and awesomeness.
I KNOW for a fact that she has helped and inspired many. I as well as them are grateful for this. I will not support this ridiculous scam. It appears many others will not either. Now it is time for HER to get help.
I'm sorry, but this is getting ridiculous. And I'm sorry "I am" that I'm replying to you, as I could have done it to other users as well.
DeleteYou want to say something, use your REAL name. Like Jen did. Or magical Housewife. Do not hiode behind a new google-ID opened in July solely for the purpose of answering here.
Suddenly everybody has known for YEAAAARS how fake Dayna is and always has been, and this is just the perfect opportunity to say so (Why now? Why not last year or 3 years ago, if she is as fake as you're saying? Why let her make a ton of money with books and blogs and TV, if she's not what she puts on the market?)
Those Anonymous-Google-Accounts make me angry. So now, I could make a new one for myself and write the following:
"Hey, I've been living next to the Martins for 15 years. Did you know that she's making barbecues everyday while yelling at her angry and unhappy kids? Every now and then Joe comes out of his wood-shop (where by the way he's building overpriced kitchens with cheap wood and toxic chinese paint) and yells at her to go get him a f***ing beer or else she'll get a good spanking (which, by the way, she seems to enjoy a lot)..." Who could say that this is not true? I think I know enough from her FB-page to make it believable, and the lies would be well-accepted by those who want to throw shit at her.
Get my point? I do not even unschool, let alone live in the US. I've never met Dayna and I am not on her side or on Jen's side. I am not saying that what is written in the blog or in the answers isn't true, how would I know? It is just so easy to say "I know her personally, she's a real mess" but not back it up with a name.
I said very clearly why I did what I did, which I am not required nor obliged to say more. I thankfully KNOW the truth as do MANY others. If someone wants to believe and play the game of the lies then so be it. As I also said much of what she shares IS beneficial and it does not mean that that has to be discredited. The truth is what is important, as Jen said no need to convince anyone of anything.
DeleteI have MUCh on the line and act CONSCIOUSLY rather than angrily, rashly, or with revenge, judgement or spite. I have plenty of reasons to do as I am doing now and EVERYTHING I have said is true. I can prove it under penalty of perjury in a court of law.
I am on truths side and if using a "name" is what supports truths prevail than so shall it be. On top of that I will do a LIVE video with my FACE and other powerful aspects available to me. We will see. The truth is always revealed.
Yet even in the light many dwell in the dark.
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DeleteYes~
DeleteNot only am I telling the truth but I have RECORDINGS of the TRUTH. I am putting together a plan that will succeed vs just blabber around online with speculative arguments back and forth of he said she said. This has come to an end and a whole new beginning now IS.
When I do something I do it. EVERYONE will see the truth including Dayna Martin kids. No one will argue about the truth after this. It will just be obvious. Then we can all do whatever we want with the REAL information and live our life.
I AM, we are looking forward to any light you can shed on the subject. Thank you!
DeleteI AM, please end this so we can all move on. There are still soooo many who deny the truth because it seems impossible to them. PLEASE if you have some way of helping us/them, do it.
DeleteI know you're busy living life but can you please please help us? We may not be directly in your life but we are all one, are we not?
Have to reiterate: one of the earliest things I learned about the Martins was how Joe badgered people (strangers he didn't even know!) who disagreed with his wife, so it's a no-brainer to understand why anyone posting here might "think ahead" to comment anonymously, if they preferred. It doesn't make a difference to me if someone comments with their real name or not---I judge what I read by many factors, such as the tone, level of detail, possible motive, etc. Dayna has all the reason in the world to want to try to discredit these and similar claims, but I discern no cause for motivation from the author of this blog or of the several others I have recently come across, other than just wanting to put the truth out there. Strange that anyone (having nothing to do with things?) would be so angered by the mere fact that someone would make an anonymous comment. But, ok.... ?
ReplyDeleteExactly~
DeleteThe truth is easy to see when looking~
It is very easy to see from how Jen wrote vs how Dayna writes which one is more accurate to what happened. It is also easy to see in the many others who have spoken here that it is different people with very similar stories....On top of this there are many here who actually have given their real names and have also proven that they did work with her or were much more closely exchanging with her in comparison to the ones that see her on FB, at conferences on or a consulting call on the phone. It is very easy to play fake for a couple hours in the public eye......most do it regularly actually. The difference is most do not proclaim to be a medium, or a super momma.
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DeleteNot angered, ok. Bad and wrong choice of words (keep in mind that I'm not a native speaker + I'm not part of the RU-community, I have just been following DM for years and many of the other names here sound familiar as well, as they keep popping up un blogs, conferences ecc. - RU is a topic I'm interested in, but not doable where and how I live.). I'll try to rephrase / explain better.
ReplyDeleteIf what is happening here is (as the author explained) a way to get Dayna the help she apparently needs as well as warn newbies of the "true nature" of DM, then it would be a much better way to do this openly, so one can connect real people to the postings. Otherwise I could think that all "anonymous" have been written by one single very angry and upset person, the same way someone claimed that the Martins have multiple fake accounts on facebook to harass and insult people. If Joe is so "online-violent" (and this apparently is a known fact), then really, why continue to go to their conferences or continue to speak alongside them?
Mind you, I am far from "pressuring" someone to give up their real name. Your point is a good one and one I hadn't thought about (my mistake). But you tell me how one can see the "truth" if one doesn't know the author of the postings? :-( Otherweise the truth remains within the RU-circle where apparently it had been some kind of hidden truth all along.
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ReplyDeleteThanks for clarifying, Miriam; it's 'all good.' Not to over-post, just to follow-up, I had no choice but to open an acct. to add a comment here, as you have to choose which of the following to respond through, and I had zero accounts with any of them: Google Account, Live Journal, Wordpress, Type Pad, AIM, etc. So, just to say, that's one reason comments may come from a new account. :)Anyway, I really don't want to over-post; I have never met the Martins and I have zero first-hand experiences with them. I have been a "follower", however, and an unschooling supporter, so I have read this blog(and a couple others) with interest in past days. Before doing so, I would have considered myself a Dayna Martin supporter. However, the evidence about the Martins is overwhelming---and disturbing--so that is no longer the case. This blog: http://kelly.halldorson.com/blog/?page_id=2895 goes back a couple years and has Sandra Dodd's own testimony about Dayna's lack of credibility. To me, it's the long history of deceit and vindictiveness that is most troublesome. Here's another: plus.url.google.com/url?sa=z&n=1374244269807&url=http%3A%2F%2Flaurettelynn.blogspot.com%2F2013%2F07%2Fall-i-know-about-ru-drama.html&usg=0BFqkv9shmZ3pM6Y5GY_PRm0u-o. I likely would have been one of the people who were posting on Dayna's FB page in support of her, if I hadn't found these. I hope people will take the time to read the accounts before they rush to defend her. Peace, out.
ReplyDeleteThank you wren! I love that you added your experience because you are speaking for many who saw me as just another hater, until you found the truth for yourself. I am seriously not out to get someone to like me better than Dayna. I am here to support individuals in their quest for truth and to find their own intuition again.
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DeleteMagickal, the password is sadstory.
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ReplyDeleteThis does not mention Dayna Martin name anywhere I saw. Only clue is that she lives in New Hampshire. Seems like you would have to be in the know to KNOW who she is talking about here.
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DeleteThe same thing is happening with the Thomas Jefferson Education movement. It's a good thing when people call folks out.
ReplyDeleteAs hard as it is to believe, when our kids were in a Waldorf school....SEVERAL of the teachers there exhibited this sort of behavior. I guess it's no surprise that Narcissists need to feel like gurus, and what better way than a room full of unsuspecting children?
ReplyDeleteDid Dayna ever make an official response to this blog?
ReplyDeleteAntony, she responded 4 times through her own blog, changed the wording on a daily basis, and then eventually deleted everything and acted like it never happened. I do have copies of all of her posts, though. Numerous people copied and sent them to me because they knew she was changing and deleting what she had written.
DeleteUntil now, my only problem with Dayna Martin was that her children were not old enough for her to be an authority on anything related to parenting, homeschooling, or unschooling.
ReplyDeleteAs a seasoned mom of two older teens and two young adults, I only just now feel that I have any useful advice for people who are considering homeschooling or unschooling as a life decision. Because I know what did and didn't work--what seemingly good ideas backfired, when I should leave them alone, and when they need boundaries to keep them safe. I am also very comfortable with the idea that what works for one family will not necessarily work for another.
The pressure she is under to be what she professes to be (an authority), under all circumstances, produces the very same pressures that being the societally "perfect" woman/mother/wife/career woman does. One cannot do this for very long without coming unraveled, especially if one was fraying around the edges to begin with.
I am sorry for her. Genuinely so. She is in over her head.
I've been following her blog and her FB posts since early summer. Many of her ideas are lovely--much of it useful to the young parent still trying to decide how to approach the lovely winding waters of childhood--accepting who your children are and the pace they develop at, and so on. But there was an unsettling undercurrent that I couldn't quite define.
That looks like a more serious issue to me, either psychotic breakdown (if it was a one-time period of bizarre behavior different from her everyday conduct) or a borderline personality disorder or some kind of dissociative or psychotic disorder, plus alcohol and possible drugs (the pills in RV) add to it. I am not making a diagnosis here (I'm a counselor, not a psychiatrist), but my feeling is this person is in need of professional help and under no circumstances should be allowed to work with children, especially with no supervision.
ReplyDeleteI am just confused why anyone would need a specialist to unschool and why anyone would need an unnanny to unschool or learn how to unschool. It is all beyond confusing why anyone outside the family is brought in to teach a family how to follow their childs desires. So this "guru", either by her own fantasies or the status that others gave her is an oxymoron. No one but the child is a guru of their own interest and desires.
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